Even if cs selected or not please don't do this
  • bsteczdesigns

    Took me a bit to figure out what's going down, but since the date is still there, it wasn't hard to just go to All Tees and find the post. Blocking the name doesn't really do anything in that case then.

    Also, I'm not really seeing a problem here. He gave a specific design a set price and he's trying to sell it. I know most people don't like to just give out rates because it all depends on the design, but that's done in this case. If your point is that the price is low, well I don't really think it matters. Every designer is at a different position in their careers. If he wants $75 for that, cool.
  • Cameron Latham

    bsteczdesigns said:Took me a bit to figure out what's going down, but since the date is still there, it wasn't hard to just go to All Tees and find the post. Blocking the name doesn't really do anything in that case then.

    Also, I'm not really seeing a problem here. He gave a specific design a set price and he's trying to sell it. I know most people don't like to just give out rates because it all depends on the design, but that's done in this case. If your point is that the price is low, well I don't really think it matters. Every designer is at a different position in their careers. If he wants $75 for that, cool.

    Most folks on here are charging well over $75 for their work; or at least I'd hope so. Throwing low numbers around a public site puts it in the heads of potential clients that $75 is an okay number. It could be argued that any client that's only willing to pay that amount isn't worth your time, but if they're new to this and $75 is the first number they see, they're going to get sticker shock when another designer asks for three or four times that.

    It's not a good design and it likely won't sell to anyone worthwhile, if at all. But regardless, this is lame and unprofessional.
  • bsteczdesigns

    Cameron Latham said:
    bsteczdesigns said:Took me a bit to figure out what's going down, but since the date is still there, it wasn't hard to just go to All Tees and find the post. Blocking the name doesn't really do anything in that case then.

    Also, I'm not really seeing a problem here. He gave a specific design a set price and he's trying to sell it. I know most people don't like to just give out rates because it all depends on the design, but that's done in this case. If your point is that the price is low, well I don't really think it matters. Every designer is at a different position in their careers. If he wants $75 for that, cool.

    Most folks on here are charging well over $75 for their work; or at least I'd hope so. Throwing low numbers around a public site puts it in the heads of potential clients that $75 is an okay number. It could be argued that any client that's only willing to pay that amount isn't worth your time, but if they're new to this and $75 is the first number they see, they're going to get sticker shock when another designer asks for three or four times that.

    It's not a good design and it likely won't sell to anyone worthwhile, if at all. But regardless, this is lame and unprofessional.

    Yeah fair points. I'm just at the point where I'm focusing on my own business and work and not really worrying about others in cases like this. I charged super low at one point, but that was because my skill wasn't up to par. I'd hope everyone would charge what's appropriate for the quality they're sending out and clients are aware that if you buy a $50 design, it's going to look like a $50 design versus what a $300 design would be.
  • Cameron Latham

    bsteczdesigns said:
    Cameron Latham said:
    bsteczdesigns said:Took me a bit to figure out what's going down, but since the date is still there, it wasn't hard to just go to All Tees and find the post. Blocking the name doesn't really do anything in that case then.

    Also, I'm not really seeing a problem here. He gave a specific design a set price and he's trying to sell it. I know most people don't like to just give out rates because it all depends on the design, but that's done in this case. If your point is that the price is low, well I don't really think it matters. Every designer is at a different position in their careers. If he wants $75 for that, cool.

    Most folks on here are charging well over $75 for their work; or at least I'd hope so. Throwing low numbers around a public site puts it in the heads of potential clients that $75 is an okay number. It could be argued that any client that's only willing to pay that amount isn't worth your time, but if they're new to this and $75 is the first number they see, they're going to get sticker shock when another designer asks for three or four times that.

    It's not a good design and it likely won't sell to anyone worthwhile, if at all. But regardless, this is lame and unprofessional.

    Yeah fair points. I'm just at the point where I'm focusing on my own business and work and not really worrying about others in cases like this. I charged super low at one point, but that was because my skill wasn't up to par. I'd hope everyone would charge what's appropriate for the quality they're sending out and clients are aware that if you buy a $50 design, it's going to look like a $50 design versus what a $300 design would be.

    Yeah, no doubt that it looks like a $75 design. My point was more so that displaying such low prices for designs works against newer designers that may not have a client base yet. I've seen larger name designers do similar things in Talk posts, which is why it may confuse potential clients who are new to hiring designers about what's appropriate in terms of quality and cost. If someone's only asking $75 for a $200-300 quality design, it hurts the market. Quality should be the selling point; not the price.
  • THEGOODSHIT

    I agree with cameron.
  • dbdesign

    I disagree with this being a problem.

    Good clients will recognize good work, I wouldn't worry about people posting their lowball pricing because they just look unprofessional anyway. If someone pays $75 for that thing, too bad, you don't want to work with clients who want $75 designs anyway. Things like this just weed out the bad clients from hassling you for cheap work, so in a way- it's a positive.

    In my opinion - It doesn't really "hurt" the market at all, because good clients will recognize good work, in return the good designers will always benefit, no matter what. If someone contacts you and expect a design for $75 because they saw it on Mintees...just tell them to kick rocks.
  • fuggart

    dbdesign said:I disagree with this being a problem.

    Good clients will recognize good work, I wouldn't worry about people posting their lowball pricing because they just look unprofessional anyway. If someone pays $75 for that thing, too bad, you don't want to work with clients who want $75 designs anyway. Things like this just weed out the bad clients from hassling you for cheap work, so in a way- it's a positive.

    In my opinion - It doesn't really "hurt" the market at all, because good clients will recognize good work, in return the good designers will always benefit, no matter what. If someone contacts you and expect a design for $75 because they saw it on Mintees...just tell them to kick rocks.

    Agreed. there's always been low ballers it's nothing new. The only problem is when actually talented designers come along and low ball. Generally speaking people are quick to up their prices to meet the demand when they start off low balling. Those who don't are stupid and probably burn out anyway after slaving all day for pennies as I've never heard of a long term merch designer low balling us all.
  • disembodied head

    dbdesign said:I disagree with this being a problem.

    Good clients will recognize good work, I wouldn't worry about people posting their lowball pricing because they just look unprofessional anyway. If someone pays $75 for that thing, too bad, you don't want to work with clients who want $75 designs anyway. Things like this just weed out the bad clients from hassling you for cheap work, so in a way- it's a positive.

    In my opinion - It doesn't really "hurt" the market at all, because good clients will recognize good work, in return the good designers will always benefit, no matter what. If someone contacts you and expect a design for $75 because they saw it on Mintees...just tell them to kick rocks.

    agreed. I really dislike the notion that if someone puts up a low offer for their work it somehow effects other designers. It doesn't. That's like saying clients don't know sh*t from shinola. This is a free market and if a client wants to pay for crappy work then it's their choice to do so, but saying lowball work effects you personally as a designer is disingenuous at best.

    Your portfolio will ultimately decide whether or not you can command higher prices. It irritates me that so much time is spent worrying about the other guy charging low prices. If I saw someone come along who didn't have much in the way of a portfolio and was asking top dollar for his designs i'd pass. But someone with an impressive portfolio and long list of clients would be an easier sell, because you know they have an established a history. The free market will weed out the the bad from the good.
  • Cameron Latham

    disembodied head said:
    dbdesign said:I disagree with this being a problem.

    Good clients will recognize good work, I wouldn't worry about people posting their lowball pricing because they just look unprofessional anyway. If someone pays $75 for that thing, too bad, you don't want to work with clients who want $75 designs anyway. Things like this just weed out the bad clients from hassling you for cheap work, so in a way- it's a positive.

    In my opinion - It doesn't really "hurt" the market at all, because good clients will recognize good work, in return the good designers will always benefit, no matter what. If someone contacts you and expect a design for $75 because they saw it on Mintees...just tell them to kick rocks.

    agreed. I really dislike the notion that if someone puts up a low offer for their work it somehow effects other designers. It doesn't. That's like saying clients don't know sh*t from shinola. This is a free market and if a client wants to pay for crappy work then it's their choice to do so, but saying lowball work effects you personally as a designer is disingenuous at best.

    Your portfolio will ultimately decide whether or not you can command higher prices. It irritates me that so much time is spent worrying about the other guy charging low prices. If I saw someone come along who didn't have much in the way of a portfolio and was asking top dollar for his designs i'd pass. But someone with an impressive portfolio and long list of clients would be an easier sell, because you know they have an established a history. The free market will weed out the the bad from the good.

    Obviously anyone who comes to someone who's been doing this for a while asking for such a low rate is going to get laughed off. My point regarding potential clients mentioning that rate was as simple as that; they see that number somewhere, they mention it to an established designer, they get told that it's a low rate.

    I understand capitalism. Charge what your work is worth, sure. It's a $75 design (if we're being generous) and a likely awful client may pay that price for that. It does, however, affect the up-and-coming designers who may be putting out great work, but don't know that charging $75 is low. Eventually, they learn; we all did. None of us started out charging $200-400 for a shirt design.

    When I said that it hurts the market, I was talking about those who do have an established name and impressive portfolio, but are charging lower rates than standard. It doesn't become an issue of "good" or "bad" at that point, but of quality and price. If you could get $300 quality anything for $75, you would take it. At that level, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

    I have no problem getting a proper price for my work nowadays, but I remember what it was like just starting out, too.
  • nathancottenham

    I honestly don't care what people charge. That's their business. Something a lot of people need to learn is to focus on themselves instead of worrying what everyone else is doing.
  • disembodied head

    Cameron Latham said:
    disembodied head said:
    dbdesign said:I disagree with this being a problem.

    Good clients will recognize good work, I wouldn't worry about people posting their lowball pricing because they just look unprofessional anyway. If someone pays $75 for that thing, too bad, you don't want to work with clients who want $75 designs anyway. Things like this just weed out the bad clients from hassling you for cheap work, so in a way- it's a positive.

    In my opinion - It doesn't really "hurt" the market at all, because good clients will recognize good work, in return the good designers will always benefit, no matter what. If someone contacts you and expect a design for $75 because they saw it on Mintees...just tell them to kick rocks.

    agreed. I really dislike the notion that if someone puts up a low offer for their work it somehow effects other designers. It doesn't. That's like saying clients don't know sh*t from shinola. This is a free market and if a client wants to pay for crappy work then it's their choice to do so, but saying lowball work effects you personally as a designer is disingenuous at best.

    Your portfolio will ultimately decide whether or not you can command higher prices. It irritates me that so much time is spent worrying about the other guy charging low prices. If I saw someone come along who didn't have much in the way of a portfolio and was asking top dollar for his designs i'd pass. But someone with an impressive portfolio and long list of clients would be an easier sell, because you know they have an established a history. The free market will weed out the the bad from the good.

    Obviously anyone who comes to someone who's been doing this for a while asking for such a low rate is going to get laughed off. My point regarding potential clients mentioning that rate was as simple as that; they see that number somewhere, they mention it to an established designer, they get told that it's a low rate.

    I understand capitalism. Charge what your work is worth, sure. It's a $75 design (if we're being generous) and a likely awful client may pay that price for that. It does, however, affect the up-and-coming designers who may be putting out great work, but don't know that charging $75 is low. Eventually, they learn; we all did. None of us started out charging $200-400 for a shirt design.

    When I said that it hurts the market, I was talking about those who do have an established name and impressive portfolio, but are charging lower rates than standard. It doesn't become an issue of "good" or "bad" at that point, but of quality and price. If you could get $300 quality anything for $75, you would take it. At that level, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

    I have no problem getting a proper price for my work nowadays, but I remember what it was like just starting out, too.

    I think it's important to point out too the different types of art for sale by designers. There's no question, commissioned artwork costs more because we're talking about translating an idea into graphic format. Anyone who thinks they can get commissioned art for next to nothing is delusional. Then there's artwork that was created for whatever/whomever and is just laying around on someone's harddrive. These could be designs that were rejected from Threadless or past client or something that was done purely for fun. These are often unsold designs that designers are putting out there for sale to generate quick cash or to free up harddrive space. There's no right or wrong answer to how much a designer should charge for these designs.

    I agree with nathancottenham, I personally don't care what someone charges for their work. If it's within my budget and if I like the designer's aesthetic then i'd go for it. I look at a designer's portfolio first and price second.

    Another point i'd like to bring up is that all designers have their own style. Sure, there are some that copy styles but most develop their skills over time. You may have one designer who specializes in horror themes and another who specializes in character designs. Each designer's style will cater to a specific market and thus the demand he may bring in. Others are more prolific and can do many styles, and those are the ones that will flourish the most imo. My point, the horror designer who complains about not getting enough work shouldn't play the victim card and start blaming low-ball designers for their lack of jobs. Blame yourself for putting yourself into a niche market.
  • jonkruse

    There was a moment in every designers life that they would have done a t-shirt design for $75. They would have been excited to get paid anything to design something.

    Don't lie, you know this is true. Think back to when you just got Photoshop, when you were just learning about design.

    The idea that everyone has to conform to a certain pricing because it hurts other designers is stupid. Its just like saying Mcdonalds devalues a five star restaurant because its so cheap. They aren't even in competition because McDonalds sucks! And no one is going to pay the same price for McDonalds as a five star restaurant.

    Stop worrying about others, it isn't productive.

    Or... just go ahead and keep on believing the reason why you aren't getting design jobs is because of the guy selling $75 designs.... and not that you just aren't that great of a designer.
  • miles to go

    jonkruse said:There was a moment in every designers life that they would have done a t-shirt design for $75. They would have been excited to get paid anything to design something.

    Don't lie, you know this is true. Think back to when you just got Photoshop, when you were just learning about design.

    The idea that everyone has to conform to a certain pricing because it hurts other designers is stupid. Its just like saying Mcdonalds devalues a five star restaurant because its so cheap. They aren't even in competition because McDonalds sucks! And no one is going to pay the same price for McDonalds as a five star restaurant.

    Stop worrying about others, it isn't productive.

    Or... just go ahead and keep on believing the reason why you aren't getting design jobs is because of the guy selling $75 designs.... and not that you just aren't that great of a designer.

    agreed. if you are trying to get into doing band merch anyway, you may want to get used to getting lowballed by management. the managers want to make the most for their bands, so they will take what they can, for cheap. they also know when to recognize good design work and you see those guys getting printed all of the time. as jon mentioned, if you aren't getting work, it's not because of people like this, it's most likely your body of work.

    to give further example of this, i recently did an open roll call for portfolio submissions for a new design i had in mind to bring in some new blood. i got tons of emails with links and their pricing. plenty of people emailed me saying they were in the $100-150 range for a custom design, but the person i went with was in the $4-500 range. why? their body of work was consistent and paired better with what i was looking for than the cheap options. this wasn't a designer with a huge following for me to ride off of either, just someone with really solid work and a look to their designs.
  • William Henry

    jonkruse said:There was a moment in every designers life that they would have done a t-shirt design for $75. They would have been excited to get paid anything to design something.

    Don't lie, you know this is true. Think back to when you just got Photoshop, when you were just learning about design.

    The idea that everyone has to conform to a certain pricing because it hurts other designers is stupid. Its just like saying Mcdonalds devalues a five star restaurant because its so cheap. They aren't even in competition because McDonalds sucks! And no one is going to pay the same price for McDonalds as a five star restaurant.

    Stop worrying about others, it isn't productive.

    Or... just go ahead and keep on believing the reason why you aren't getting design jobs is because of the guy selling $75 designs.... and not that you just aren't that great of a designer.

    I get what you're saying, but I don't think your analogy totally works simply because people have a general understanding of how much food will cost at a restaurant versus how much McDonalds is. Most people have no idea how much design work costs, so if the only people who publicize their prices are listing stuff at $75, then people are going to start assuming that is the standard price. Nobody goes to a 5 star restaurant after looking at McDonalds menu and expects to pay the same price. I mean feel free to charge whatever you like, but listing prices that low does negatively affect other designers. How much so is certainly debatable though.
  • disembodied head

    jonkruse said:There was a moment in every designers life that they would have done a t-shirt design for $75. They would have been excited to get paid anything to design something.

    Don't lie, you know this is true. Think back to when you just got Photoshop, when you were just learning about design.

    The idea that everyone has to conform to a certain pricing because it hurts other designers is stupid. Its just like saying Mcdonalds devalues a five star restaurant because its so cheap. They aren't even in competition because McDonalds sucks! And no one is going to pay the same price for McDonalds as a five star restaurant.

    Stop worrying about others, it isn't productive.

    Or... just go ahead and keep on believing the reason why you aren't getting design jobs is because of the guy selling $75 designs.... and not that you just aren't that great of a designer.

    agreed 100%. I remember way back when on this site when there were those that were making the same complaint about low ball artists out there that were hurting other designers. I just find the whole thing to be complete nonsense and counterproductive.

    The way I see it, every designer has to hustle and develop their portfolio. The talented designers are going too be the ones that bring in the clients, regardless of what they charge. As a client you're paying for a specific style to represent your brand. The ones that seem to be complaining a lot are probably the ones not getting any work, and it isn't because of the low-baller.
  • disembodied head

    William Henry said:
    jonkruse said:There was a moment in every designers life that they would have done a t-shirt design for $75. They would have been excited to get paid anything to design something.

    Don't lie, you know this is true. Think back to when you just got Photoshop, when you were just learning about design.

    The idea that everyone has to conform to a certain pricing because it hurts other designers is stupid. Its just like saying Mcdonalds devalues a five star restaurant because its so cheap. They aren't even in competition because McDonalds sucks! And no one is going to pay the same price for McDonalds as a five star restaurant.

    Stop worrying about others, it isn't productive.

    Or... just go ahead and keep on believing the reason why you aren't getting design jobs is because of the guy selling $75 designs.... and not that you just aren't that great of a designer.

    I get what you're saying, but I don't think your analogy totally works simply because people have a general understanding of how much food will cost at a restaurant versus how much McDonalds is. Most people have no idea how much design work costs, so if the only people who publicize their prices are listing stuff at $75, then people are going to start assuming that is the standard price. Nobody goes to a 5 star restaurant after looking at McDonalds menu and expects to pay the same price. I mean feel free to charge whatever you like, but listing prices that low does negatively affect other designers. How much so is certainly debatable though.

    you're making a very big assumption about what clients think art is worth. Yes, there are cheap clients everywhere, but that doesn't mean every client wants cheap art. The analogy i've used before is something akin to hiring a plumber. Would you hire the more expensive plumber that is licensed/bonded/insured and gets the job done correctly the first time, or the cheap unlicensed plumber who's working out of his garage?
  • fuggart

    the short version:
    - if some crappy designer is charging $75 for a design it's affecting no one else other than crappy designers
    - if a good designer is charging too low for a design it DOES affect other designers

    So don't be a low baller if you're actually good. And if you are not getting work because some crappy designer charges less then you are also a crappy designer.

    As Greg pointed out... many clients have an eye for good design and will pay extra for it regardless of what else is on offer. I have no problem getting my rates for design work and I charge a hell of a lot more than what most band merch designers do.
  • disembodied head

    fuggart said:the short version:
    - if some crappy designer is charging $75 for a design it's affecting no one else other than crappy designers
    - if a good designer is charging too low for a design it DOES affect other designers

    So don't be a low baller if you're actually good. And if you are not getting work because some crappy designer charges less then you are also a crappy designer.

    don't know if I agree with the second part you noted about being a good designer and charging low prices. I think a good designer charging low prices may end up hurting themselves in the long run, not others. But that's a personal choice and there may be a million reasons why this happens. Again, you have to look at factors like what they charge for commissioned work versus some project they did for fun. two very different things imo.

    Also, when you guys talk about low prices versus high prices, what set of criteria are you using? Is the definition of a lowball price anything below $100? What is considered a generally accepted price for artwork? I don't think there's a wrong answer, just curious how some of you define 'fair.'
  • miles to go

    disembodied head said:
    fuggart said:the short version:
    - if some crappy designer is charging $75 for a design it's affecting no one else other than crappy designers
    - if a good designer is charging too low for a design it DOES affect other designers

    So don't be a low baller if you're actually good. And if you are not getting work because some crappy designer charges less then you are also a crappy designer.

    don't know if I agree with the second part you noted about being a good designer and charging low prices. I think a good designer charging low prices may end up hurting themselves in the long run, not others. But that's a personal choice and there may be a million reasons why this happens. Again, you have to look at factors like what they charge for commissioned work versus some project they did for fun. two very different things imo.

    Also, when you guys talk about low prices versus high prices, what set of criteria are you using? Is the definition of a lowball price anything below $100? What is considered a generally accepted price for artwork? I don't think there's a wrong answer, just curious how some of you define 'fair.'

    I get quoted between $250 to $500($300/350 norm) on average from people I consider solid designers with a good body of work. Sometimes I get quoted higher, but as a small brand, even $500 is really pushing it for me. Usually younger designers oddly enough quote me higher than established people because they think I'm their chance to bank and I always say no.

    Lets say the art cost $500 and I print 100 on a first run, that equals $5 per tee in art. It's a lot harder than most people think to sell through 100 shirts and it's not really until I get to reprints(if the design does well enough) that I start to make any money at all. I've had plenty of designs that bomb with expensive art. Just part of it all. So, reasonable pricing for your time is the best way to price. If you think a design will take you 10 hrs and you want $25/hr, then asking $250 isn't lowballing, etc.
  • dbdesign

    It's the difference between a general store and a department store, they all make money and at the end of the day do you think Nordstrom thinks that they are losing customers to a clearance sale at Target? Doubt it. On the flip side of this coin, there are probably designers out there getting more money for their designs than I or you may think they deserve...but it's all about how you command respect and present your work. Stop worrying so much and just make designs that you know how to make.

    Moral of the story...charge what you want and if someone has something to say about your pricing...fuck em'.
    If I want to charge $50 for a logo just because I can, (Which I would never) and you have a problem with that, well fuck you.

    That's how I see it.
  • Matt Borchert

    Supply and demand works all of these issues out on its own. Focus on yourself and what your ideal price point is and ignore people that you think are undervaluing themselves.

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